Accord 2.4 Petrol 2003. Wont Start anymore

[eturner]

Interesting one this, cam in with performance down, rough running at idle engine management light on.

The garage that had brought it in had replaced both camshaft sensors due to the camshaft syncronisation error.

So I suspected the vvt, checked the oil, none on the dipstick, took over 3 litres to get it up to minimum, so I removed and cleaned the vvt solenoid and filter, replaced it all, started better but not right.

Took off the cam cover and immediately saw that both cams had jumped, exhaust 1 tooth inlet 2 teeth, probably due to the lack of oil.

Trying to keep costs down at the request of the garage that brought it in carefully eased the tensioner back from above and lined up the timing marks, rotated the engine a few times and everything seems OK so put it all back together, turned the key, no start. Tries to start but dies within 1 second, then just tries reluctantly a few times, but no go. No errors now at all, smells of fuel, good spark, but wont start.

Checked timing again and definitely spot on, cant rotate the inlet camshaft at all against the vvt as I believe I should be able to.

So can anyone offer any advice and checks - apart from the obvious of doing it on the cheap like this

I don't have much data on this engine appart from AD and Vivid so any extra info much appreciated.
Thanks
Eric

[Geo]

Are you sure the timing is definitely ok? What position are the cylinder 1 camshaft lobes in when you are lined up at tdc?

Reason I ask is that I had something similar a while back with a Corolla vvti engine. The timing marks were spot on but the keyways in the camshafts had sheared and allowed the sprockets to move on the end of the shafts. So even though the marks lined up on the sprockets the timing was out. The car had been run low in oil and I think the camshafts had seized in the head causing the keyways to shear.

That one had bent valves from the slipped timing also. Have you done a leakdown test to check this possibility?

[eturner]

I am still working on this as we are stacked out and have more cars arriving tomorrow!

Looking from the front of the engine, timing chain end, on Cly 1 - closest the sprockets, the exhaust cam is at about 9:30 and the inlet is at about 2:30 if you get what I mean.

Should I be able to rotate the inlet camshaft against the sprocket, I am thinking maybe the vtec has jammed or seized.

I did a compression check to test for any valve damage and all cyls were even at about 170 psi on cranking with a closed throttle, seemed OK to me.

Any more help much appreciated, I cant go home until this is done!

Thanks
Eric

[Geo]

Cam lobe position sounds about right. As in at tdc exhaust valves have closed and inlets are about to open I'm not familiar with Honda VTEC systems so I'm not sure if you should be able to rotate the shaft independently of the sprocket. I wouldn't have thought you should be able to but I don't know for sure. I also wouldn't have thought that a VTEC problem would cause a non start but again I don't have experience with Honda engines as they don't usually break 

A compression test isn't the best method of deciding if valves are ok or not. The Corolla I saw had similar compression figures to what you recorded but still had 4 bent valves. If you have a cylinder leakage tester then I would say you should definitely check for valve damage that way. In my experience slipped timing almost always results in bent valves.

[eturner]

Leak tested it, all OK.

When I just tried to start it there was some blow back through the throttle body, timing still looks ok, no leaking valves.

Eric

[Geo]

Blow back through the throttle body sounds like valve timing is out. But if you are sure it is ok then I am out of ideas 

[pgs]

Could this be a blocked cat/exhaust that is now having a greater effect because the valve timing has been corrected?

[eturner]

Now its getting up my nose, just put the cam timing back where it was and it still wont start, no errors, still blowing back, but actually sounded a bit more like it would start.

There is so little to remove, basically the coils a breather pipe and the power steering pipe, rocker cover, so its not as if I could have put a pipe on wrong or connected anything the wrong way round.

I cant believe that it wont start having changed so little.

When checking the cylinder leakage I had each cylinder at tdc so I know that there is no valve damage, and the cylinders are sealing so I would have expected the engine to run even if it was a bit rough. I am surprised at the blow back for the same reason.

Banging my head against the wall now, HELP

Eric

[Ashraf]

Hi Eturner

Took off the cam cover and immediately saw that both cams had jumped, exhaust 1 tooth inlet 2 teeth, probably due to the lack of oil.

Trying to keep costs down at the request of the garage that brought it in carefully eased the tensioner back from above and lined up the timing marks, rotated the engine a few times and everything seems OK so put it all back together, turned the key, no start. Tries to start but dies within 1 second, then just tries reluctantly a few times, but no go. No errors now at all, smells of fuel, good spark, but wont start.

According to the AD there are 4 Timing marks on Camshaft Gears; 2 on each gear, and 3 marks on Timing Chain to match on every mark on camshaft gear.

So just a thought if those chain marks are not matching with the gear marks that might be the problem.

Its worth removing the Timing chain cover and refitting it again properly with those chain marks at its position to be sure before it causes any further damages.


Ash